14 Dec
2005
14 Dec
'05
3:49 p.m.
Hi,
I hope no-one is bothered by a post that isn't particularly about Linux.
It's about my experience choosing high-speed internet access in
Luxembourg and ends with a request for info about Alternet/Tiscali.
I recently arrived in Luxembourg and started looking for a good ISP.
My discovery? It's incredibly hard to find out any quality of service
info on an ISP. There is, for instance, no website that collects
information and complaints about ISPs. I find this amazing because
the contracts here are very restrictive, and if you don't like the
service, there's nothing you can do but wait until the contract ends.
I was used to being able to get out with 30 days notice.
Anyway, at first, I assumed I' go with DSL because I've always have.
Then tried to persuade me to consider cable - cheaper, faster, and
offering a telephone alternative to P&T. Coditel is the cable
provider in my area. The cable fan I spoke to is in an Eltrona area.
Try as I might, I couldn't get any objective information on the
Coditel service. What I did get was a lot of anecdotal evidence that
Coditel was having serious tech problems with their telephone
service, and their billing and customer support service was seriously
lacking. I did hear that their internet service worked as advertised.
But I also heard that the company's quality had gone downhill since
it was acquired by a Belgian company. Since I'm not really interested
in the local cable offerings for TV, I'd only have cable if it
offered me a way to avoid paying for a P&T landline, as well. Based
on what I could find out, I dropped the idea.
Next I returned to DSL. Having tracked the prices, I could see that
competition was having a noticeable effect, reducing the cable price
advantage. But again, I had limited information on quality of service.
So I devised an experiment. I have a DSL modem that I bought in
Canada. I decided to ask all 11 DSL ISPs I knew whether my DSL modem
ought to work here. I sent the message listing the technical specs of
my modem (I had already ascertained with the manufacturer that it
probably will work here) at 15:58 on Dec. 12. It's not 16:32 on Dec.
14, and so far, only 4 of the ISPs (2 of which turned out to be
different names for the same outfit) have bothered to respond.
Based on this experiment and my interaction with the people who
responded and their prices, I am considering signing up with Alternet/
Tiscali (they responded right away with accurate, detailed
information and had a deal on a level with the cheapest on the
market. I wonder if I could trouble list members for any information
that I should consider before committing myself.
Thank you,
Mike
mglists@gmailcom
15 Dec
15 Dec
7:02 a.m.
Hi Mike,
On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 04:49:37PM +0100, Mike G. wrote:
I hope no-one is bothered by a post that isn't
particularly about Linux.
We're open to a lot of things other than Linux - it's not even limited
to Free Software but other creations with similar mindset (creative
commons).
Furthermore, we do have some experience with networking, so you're in
the right place ;-)
It's about my experience choosing high-speed
internet access in
Luxembourg and ends with a request for info about Alternet/Tiscali.
A while back, Brent Frere told us about his experience with Alternet,
which was definitely positive - both comparatively cheap and good
service, IIRC.
I recently arrived in Luxembourg and started looking
for a good ISP.
My discovery? It's incredibly hard to find out any quality of service
info on an ISP. There is, for instance, no website that collects
information and complaints about ISPs. I find this amazing because
the contracts here are very restrictive, and if you don't like the
service, there's nothing you can do but wait until the contract ends.
I was used to being able to get out with 30 days notice.
This is Luxembourg - we're quite happy not to be limited to a single
provider charging 3x usual european rates any more.
No idea though on the independant website collecting such info for
Luxembourg, I did know such pages for both Germany and Switzerland.
Anyway, at first, I assumed I' go with DSL
because I've always have.
Then tried to persuade me to consider cable - cheaper, faster, and
offering a telephone alternative to P&T. Coditel is the cable
provider in my area. The cable fan I spoke to is in an Eltrona area.
I did hear some negative stuff about Coditel - AFAIK they're being
sued by the local consumer's rights association...
No idea about Eltrona.
[snip]
Next I returned to DSL. Having tracked the prices, I
could see that
competition was having a noticeable effect, reducing the cable price
advantage. But again, I had limited information on quality of service.
Depends on the definition of service ;-)
My own experience is with P&T's LuxDSL - I was one of their first clients
when no-one else offered any DSL access, and I've never felt the hurt
needed to switch. The internet connectivity rarely fails, and if it does,
it's usually fixed quickly enough.
Reaction times to emails to the helpdesk (happened a couple of times to
me, way back) were abysmal (several months - I wonder why they even
bothered), even if the issues were addressed quickly enough. I've only
once had to call their helpdesk by phone (for someone else at that), here
the experience was very satisfactory. They're most probably not the
cheapest, though ;-)
I've heard some good about Visual Online / Netline.
So I devised an experiment. I have a DSL modem that I
bought in
Canada. I decided to ask all 11 DSL ISPs I knew whether my DSL modem
ought to work here. I sent the message listing the technical specs of
my modem (I had already ascertained with the manufacturer that it
probably will work here) at 15:58 on Dec. 12. It's not 16:32 on Dec.
14, and so far, only 4 of the ISPs (2 of which turned out to be
different names for the same outfit) have bothered to respond.
In some PDF found on the www.luxdsl.lu website I found exact specs which
the DSL equipment needs to fulfill - it's in the "conditions particulières
LuxDSL/SpeedSurf".
Based on this experiment and my interaction with the
people who
responded and their prices, I am considering signing up with Alternet/
Tiscali (they responded right away with accurate, detailed
information and had a deal on a level with the cheapest on the
market. I wonder if I could trouble list members for any information
that I should consider before committing myself.
Judging from Brent's info, you'll probably not be making a mistake by
going to Alternet...
Greetings & hth, Eric
2:32 p.m.
Eric Dondelinger wrote:
Hi Mike,
On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 04:49:37PM +0100, Mike G. wrote:
Things changed, and as I'm still not shareholder of Alternet, and still
adviser in telecom matters in Luxembourg
<http://plan-net.lu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=45>,
I have to post an update about this here.
Alternet _was_ really fast and reliable, especially for connections to
the Luxembourg, because it was connected to the DataCenter Luxembourg
<http://www.datacenter.lu/> backbone. Now, Alternet is delivering
connectivity through the Tiscali (Belgium) network, so most of the
traffic to Luxembourg goes through Brussels before coming back to
Luxembourg. A site effect was that Alternet customers were seen by
Google (fixed) or some on-line shops as in Belgium instead of
Luxembourg. However, I use daily VoIP technology with a provider located
in Luxembourg (VoIPGate <http://www.VoIPgate.lu>) through an Alternet
Internet access with constant perfect quality. The availability is still
OK. What I appreciate in Alternet is their flat rate and the fact they
are just Internet access providers: they don't try to block my SMTP or
other access, they don't try to sell me options such as "Turbo Download"
and they don't try to block my VoIP trafic.
For the price, they are no more the cheapiest, since Tele2 launched its
ADSL Illimité <http://tele2.lu/fr/internet/index.html> from 23 EUR 99.
But you must be aware that this offer comes with the obligation to
migrate your phone line from your current phone provider to Tele2 at the
same rate as EPT. So what ? would you say. The point here is that once
your line is delivered by Tele2, they have the right (as it is done by
Tiscali, MCI and Cegecom already) to block the operator selection
prefixes (15xyz). This way, you will be blocked from some phone numbers
Tele2 does not route and you will be forced to use their service instead
of the phone service provider of your choice.
My current selection is (partially for historical reasons and local
availability reasons)
* EPT phone line (maybe no more for a long time, I hope)
* Preselection to CrossComm <http://www.crosscomm.lu> with a forfait
"FreeCall" of 3 EUR for all fixe communications to Luxembourg.
* ADSL through Alternet 1 Mb/s flat rate for 30 EUR TTC a month.
* A ATA phone adapter, that routes my POTS phone network, including an
analog DECT system, to either
- EPT if it is an emergency of free phone number (112, 113, 800, ...)
- CrossComm if it is a fixe national call
- Tele2 by 15777 prefix if it is a call to Tango mobile network
- VoIPGate through Alternet in other cases (international and mobile
calls)
But things changes and you may consider the CrossComm offer:
- Phone line from EPT (so you keep access to +3270... and other numbers
- Pack ICE <http://adsl.crosscomm.lu/ice.htm> from CrossComm (22.99 EUR
for flat rate ADSL Internet access + low rates on phone calls)
- FreeCall forfait from the same CrossComm, so free calls to fixe
national network for 3 EUR a month.
- A VoIPGate account for international, mobile calls through KPhone or
an ATA phone adapter, or a VoIP phone.
I have no experience with quality or availability of CrossComm Internet
services, but their phone service has always been quite acceptable.
I hope no-one is bothered by a post that
isn't particularly about Linux.
We're open to a lot of things other than Linux - it's not even limited
to Free Software but other creations with similar mindset (creative
commons).
Furthermore, we do have some experience with networking, so you're in
the right place ;-)
It's about my experience choosing high-speed
internet access in
Luxembourg and ends with a request for info about Alternet/Tiscali.
A while back, Brent Frere told us about his experience with Alternet,
which was definitely positive - both comparatively cheap and good
service, IIRC.
This is Luxembourg - we're quite happy not to be
limited to a single
provider charging 3x usual european rates any more.
There is still a monopoly (do you know monopolies are _illegal_ in E.U.
since years ?) and all ADSL ISPs are still reselling EPT accesses (but
locally for some of them, such as Alternet).
--
Brent Frère
Private e-mail: Brent(a)BFrere.net
Postal address: 5, rue de Mamer
L-8280 Kehlen
Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg
European Union
Mobile: +352-021/29.05.98
Fax: +352-26.30.05.96
Home: +352-307.341
URL: http://BFrere.net
This e-mail signature can be checked if you have the CaCERT certificate installed.
Check http://www.CaCERT.org for details.
5:25 p.m.
Hi Brent,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post, and clarify what
Eric said about your views on Alternet.
On 15-Dec-05, at 3:32 PM, Brent Frere wrote:
Alternet was really fast and reliable, especially for
connections
to the Luxembourg, because it was connected to the DataCenter
Luxembourg backbone. Now, Alternet is delivering connectivity
through the Tiscali (Belgium) network, so most of the traffic to
Luxembourg goes through Brussels before coming back to Luxembourg.
Your expertise in this area is impressive. How do you find out how an
ISP routes its traffic? How would you quantify the impact that
different routes have on the user's experience? I use PublicVPN to
encrypt my wi-fi connections - that means all my traffic is going via
somewhere in the U.S. I've notice the occasional slowdown, but I have
no way of quantifying it.
Two people responding to my post mentioned VoIPGate. What advantage,
if any, is there to this operation over Skype/SkypeOut/SkypeIn?
For the price, they are no more the cheapiest, since
Tele2 launched
its ADSL Illimité from 23 € 99.
I don't know how often you check the ISP's prices. As of my last
check yesterday, Alternet is matching Tango/Tele2 at the 1Mb and 2Mb
level, and only 1€ more per month at the 3Mb level. And they don't
require you to migrate your phone line to them. This business of
local service resellers (as I believe you can call Tele2, Tiscali,
MCI and Cegecom) blocking your access to cheaper long distance
options is a scandal. How are they allowed to do this? Isn't it
against the principles of deregulated, competitive telecomms policy?
I wonder if this happens if you sign up with Tele2 as a preselection
customer?
One thing I'm trying to get verified: A Tele2 rep told me today that
if I wanted to sign up with them, I had to pay 80€ to have DSL
installed on my analog line, as a one-time fee. (I understand it
could be higher - P&T has a published fee of 149€ to have a new DSL
connection hooked up.) Apparently, they were offering free
installation to the first 1024 subscribers. However, my discussions
with Alternet lead me to understand that they do not impose such a
fee. I strongly dislike the idea of P&T charging a fee to let me
allow them to make money off me on a monthly basis. Alternet takes my
money and forwards most of it to P&T to pay for their access to the
P&T network. Over a year or two, P&T stands to make a lot of money
from my DSL use - why annoy me with a fee, and an expensive one at that?
I agree with you on what a good ISP should do about up-selling and
blocking. If Alternet doesn't do any of that (I've heard about
Coditel blocking port 25, or other ISPs blocking ports associated
with BitTorrent. An even more pernicious thing I've heard of is ISPs
offering "flat rate" but then qualifying it with a vaguely defined
"fair use" clause. Which means it's flat rate unlimited until they
decide otherwise.
My current selection is (partially for historical
reasons and local
availability reasons)
[snipped]
Your "current selection" seems well thought out and worth looking
into. I wonder whether you'd recommend a shop selling the necessary
hardware? I thought I had a complicated approach to making phone
calls to get the cheapest rates with a local phone provider, one LD
provider for calling overseas mobile phones and a dial-around service
for the rest! I understand most of what you specified, but, forgive
me, what is "an analog DECT system"?
You mention CrossComm as worth looking at instead of Alternet. I was
looking very seriously at their offerings, as they have good prices
and I've heard a couple of knowledgeable people speak highly of them.
But the fact that they have still not responded to my email asking
about my DSL modem (I heard from Tele2 today, three days late!). I
think that if Tele2, Alternet/Tiscali, CrossComm, DSL4All (and for
slightly more, VoxDSL) are offering the same price, the best way to
distinguish them is a) good package extras and b) tech support/
customer service. CrossComm would seem to win on package extras - but
don't you think the customer service issue is a serious question?
On 15-Dec-05, at 8:02 AM, Eric Dondelinger wrote:
I think ADSL ISPs will always be reselling access to a common
network, in any country. That situation is not in itself a monopoly.
Building a parallel network would be prohibitively expensive.
Historically, building national networks is one of the main reasons
telecomm monopolies were allowed.
The monopoly aspect of it seems to be that P&T is allowed to directly
operate an Internet service on a network is owns and operates in
direct competition with operators that buy service on that network.
That's a conflict of interest. What Luxembourg should do is force P&T
to sell of its internet division, and maybe split P&T into a network
operator and a local/long distance service provider. But I've heard
that ludicrous arguments stemming from exceptional circumstances
affecting Luxembourg are allowed to stand as the "Luxembourg Exception".
Thanks for reading.
Mike G.
This is Luxembourg - we're quite happy not
to be limited to a
single provider charging 3x usual european rates any more.
There is still a
monopoly (do you know monopolies are illegal in
E.U. since years ?) and all ADSL ISPs are still reselling EPT
accesses (but locally for some of them, such as Alternet).
5:20 p.m.
Greetings, Eric!
On 15-Dec-05, at 8:02 AM, Eric Dondelinger wrote:
I wonder how hard it would be to set on up - or get one of the other
ones to expand to include Luxembourg. Has anyone tried? Is there one
for Belgium or France? I guess one of the drawbacks is that after you
sign up, the information is irrelevant for a year, because you can't
leave the contract unless you leave the country or die! (That's just
so extremely unbalanced between the provider and the customer!)
On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 04:49:37PM +0100, Mike G.
wrote:
Thanks for making that clear, Eric! I'm glad I didn't end up
violating the list purpose. Thanks also for relaying your knowledge
of Brent Frere's assessment of Alternet - I'm responding to his post
separately.
I hope no-one is bothered by a post that
isn't particularly about
Linux.
we do have some experience with networking, so you're in the right
place ;-) There is, for
instance, no website that collects information and
complaints about ISPs.
No idea though on the independant website collecting such
info for
Luxembourg, I did know such pages for both Germany and Switzerland. I did hear some negative stuff about Coditel - AFAIK
they're being
sued by the local consumer's rights association...
I'd like to hear more about this lawsuit. Anyone know what it's
about? Know where I could find out more? This is the Union des
Consummateurs we're talking about here? I find their website is
pretty limited - I ran several searches on it for information about
ISPs and came up with little.
My own experience is with P&T's LuxDSL
[snipped] They're most
probably not the cheapest, though ;-)
No, they're not. They don't even offer flat rate/unlimited plans.
Apparently they used to, until one day they unilaterally imposed a
cap, lowered the fee, but imposed a hefty rate on usage beyond the
cap. This was something I did find on the consumer's union website. I
also in general just shy away from offerings from dominant players -
they're usually aiming their service at the mass market, and padding
the costs for tech support for dummies and things like portals and
various extra services.
I've heard some good about Visual Online /
Netline.
These two ISPs are in a group that has not tried to match Tango/
Tele2's deal. They seem to be linked directly to whatever P&T is
offering. Visual Online in particular had very complex descriptions
of their offers. These factors eliminated them from my consideration.
In some PDF found on the www.luxdsl.lu website I found
exact specs
which
the DSL equipment needs to fulfill - it's in the "conditions
particulières
LuxDSL/SpeedSurf".
Just to be clear about my experiment - I emailed the ISPs already
having a good idea of the answer. Of course, it would help if I could
test the modem on someone's line, but everything I saw, including
stuff from VOXdsl and Alternet, told me my modem should be able to
work here. The point of the email was to see how fast, and how well,
the ISP answered such a query.
Thanks again for your reply to my post.
Mike
10 Feb
10 Feb
7:25 a.m.
New subject: Coditel - Re: Alternet anyone? My ISP research
Late as usual, but too busy so I'll make this short and painful ;)
on 15-12-2005 (!!) Mike G. wrote:
On 15-Dec-05, at 8:02 AM, Eric Dondelinger wrote:
I don't think anyone answered this part and I don't know if you found
some more information...
First let's make this clear : I HATE CODITEL !
I am a very dissatisfied former customer (prisonner) of theirs and I
could rant for hours about them, except I don't have much time (right
now - meet me for an ice cream after work ;)
Coditel is/was/pretends to be a cable operator. They started offering
IP-over-cable a while back and that was (should have been) "a good
thing" [tm - Eric I believe ;)]
Coditel sucks ! Big time !
Technical service : well... I suppose they do have one... somewhere in
outer Mongolia (no, that'd be mean to the Mongols who are fine people).
Hot-line : apparently rerouted to somewhere in africa where the main
response is "we don't see any problem on our net, there must be a
problem with your system... try one this
- reboot
- reinstall your driver
- check connectivity"
(where did I hear this before ?)
Usually after insisting for about 30 minutes they suddenly notice
there IS a problem on their net.
Hot-line (2) : although my contract specifies 24/7 availability, the
hot-line switches to an answering machine between 19h and 8h... do I
read breach of contract ?
Hot-Line (3) : don't talk to them about Linux, they know the word.
Don't try explaining to them that a dual-boot is not the same as having
two machines over a router - which they won't support or allow (!)
Billing : add a random number of megabytes to your useage and adapt your
bill accordingly... no possibility to complain...
All in all ?
I sent them 3 (paper) letters of complaints over a period of 6 months. I
haven't received a single answer to any of them !! Not even when I told
them they sucked and I was considering suing them.
Efficiency : My e-Mail adress @coditel is still valid... after more than
7 months !
Funnyly, I checked the cable-modem recently... it's still on-line... (!)
I left their prison in July, have been an Alternet customer and though
I'm not happy that they won't adapt my contract to the new tarifs and
conditions (not until July), I'm VERY satisfied with their Quality of
Serivec there, with the efficiency and response of PEOPLE ! and with the
fact that they do take responsibility for what they do !
I switched my parents' line to Alternet as well... they use WiFi, no
problem at all. (And I didn't buy my modem from them - no problem there)
About the UCL vs. Coditel trial : I'm a member of UCL but didn't follow
closely on this. I'd understand they don't want to comment too much on
something that is still being tried.
AFAIK Coditel is being sued for _very serious_ discrepancies in their
_CABLE_ billing system and several cases of double-billing.
that all - it was longer than I thought ;)
serge
On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 04:49:37PM +0100, Mike G.
wrote:
I did hear some negative stuff about Coditel -
AFAIK they're being
sued by the local consumer's rights association...
I'd like to hear more about this lawsuit. Anyone know what it's about?
Know where I could find out more? This is the Union des Consummateurs
we're talking about here? I find their website is pretty limited - I
ran several searches on it for information about ISPs and came up with
little. 
11 Feb
11 Feb
1:23 p.m.
New subject: Coditel - Re: Alternet anyone? My ISP research
Serge Marelli (LiLux) wrote:
About the UCL vs. Coditel trial : I'm a member of
UCL but didn't follow
closely on this. I'd understand they don't want to comment too much on
something that is still being tried.
AFAIK Coditel is being sued for _very serious_ discrepancies in their
_CABLE_ billing system and several cases of double-billing.
I have found a "Communiqué de Presse" de l'ULC:
http://www.ulc.lu/faq/Communiques/2005/12/051202_Coditel.htm
This all fatally reminds me the problems I had with T-Online (DSL) in
Germany.
The real problem is: You do not always have a choice!
If the fitting of a satellite dish is not an option (which is the case
in many appartments) you need Coditel anyways for watching TV.
Additionnally: As far as I know all suppliers of DSL products rely on
EPT's infrastructure. If EPT's technicians are overbooked (which was
often the case), which customers do you think EPT will serve first in
case of problems? And EPT had its billing problems too! :-(
The main reason for selecting Coditel 3 years ago was the fact that I
got the connection from a single supplier. This was crucial to me after
experiencing the Telekom / T-Online "dual company".
Good to see that ULC is doing something against Coditel to protect the
customer's rights.
Patrick
6672
days inactive
6731
days old
6 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
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Brent Frere -
Eric Dondelinger -
Mike G. -
Patrick Kaell -
Serge Marelli (LiLux)