29 Jun
2004
29 Jun
'04
7:52 p.m.
I am not sure I should really do this, there's been too much arguing
already. But, looking at this from a different point of view, I am
curious to know who uses *which* distro for *what* purpose.
So would you care, if you wish to participate, to send _one line per
distro you use_ to this mailing list, in the form:
distro 1: purpose 1
distro 2: purpose 2
[...]
Disto in the sense of Unix/Linux flavour.
30 Jun
30 Jun
9:28 a.m.
Hi,
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Patrick Useldinger wrote:
Slackware: desktop, file/backup server
Slackware and desktop? You should then specify who is supposed
to do the necessary administration tasks. If it is some non-clued
end user (say, your grandmother), then IMHO slackware definitely
won't do for a desktop. If it's for a company desktop, it won't
do either, because it's going to be hard if not impossible to
get external support for slackware (hint: PHBs won't even look
at a standard SuSE or RedHat/Fedora, it has to be an "Enterprise
Desktop" version).
There remains a sort of middle ground of clued "power users"
who can have fun with it by themselves. You and I may fit the
bill, but we're exceptions there. If these same people have the
time and inclination to do the tasks for others (hint: I sure
don't, at best I'll do it for close family), then maybe a very
few more people might be converted, but... I'll grant you the
small IT company with a clued admin who could manage the small
park for the whole company.
Same goes for quite some other distros.
Greets Eric
10:10 a.m.
Slackware and desktop? You should then specify who is
supposed
to do the necessary administration tasks. If it is some non-clued
end user (say, your grandmother), then IMHO slackware definitely
won't do for a desktop. If it's for a company desktop, it won't
do either, because it's going to be hard if not impossible to
get external support for slackware (hint: PHBs won't even look
at a standard SuSE or RedHat/Fedora, it has to be an "Enterprise
Desktop" version).
There remains a sort of middle ground of clued "power users"
who can have fun with it by themselves. You and I may fit the
bill, but we're exceptions there. If these same people have the
time and inclination to do the tasks for others (hint: I sure
don't, at best I'll do it for close family), then maybe a very
few more people might be converted, but... I'll grant you the
small IT company with a clued admin who could manage the small
park for the whole company.
Most end users (grand mother included) do not do any administration,
even on Windows machines. They buy complete PCs with Windows
preinstalled without ever reinstalling Windows.
I have already seen this. There are people who buy a new PC after 3
years, because their old PC has got too slow. Not slow compared to new
technology or too slow with new demanding software. No, it has got much
slower than it was 3 years ago with the same software in absolute terms.
We all know that this is because of the aging Windows installation with
filesystem fragmentation, dead registry entries and unused DLLs. These
people do not know that they can reinstall Windows because they have
never installed it. They think that the processor becomes *tired* after
3 years!!!. Like an old car engine with a high kilometrage!
Let's be honest: No Linux distro is suited for those people. Only
preinstalled Linux PCs might be an answer, especially because Linux
installations normally do not get slower after years of usage.
Patrick Kaell
11:45 a.m.
Hi,
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Patrick Kaell wrote:
Most end users (grand mother included) do not do any
administration,
even on Windows machines. They buy complete PCs with Windows
preinstalled without ever reinstalling Windows.
Hmm... they *do* want to use that printer/scanner/copier or digital
camera they buy. Getting those to work with their computer is an
administrative task. They do it on Windows.
On some Linux distributions, that's also a matter of a very few
mouseclicks. Not so on many others - to which I'd count, say,
slackware, gentoo, debian.
I have already seen this. There are people who buy a
new PC after 3
years, because their old PC has got too slow. Not slow compared to new
technology or too slow with new demanding software. No, it has got much
slower than it was 3 years ago with the same software in absolute terms.
We all know that this is because of the aging Windows installation with
filesystem fragmentation, dead registry entries and unused DLLs. These
people do not know that they can reinstall Windows because they have
never installed it. They think that the processor becomes *tired* after
3 years!!!. Like an old car engine with a high kilometrage!
That sort of user exists, no doubt. But most users will still
ask some relative or friend first before going out to buy some
new computer. Let's also be honest and say that the problem
you're talking about is being cured (at least partially) with
the NT based systems, as the roots of much evil lay in DOS/Win9x.
If we're already bashing Windows slowness, let's not forget that
other cause: virus/worm/trojan infections, and their pseudo-cure
$Big_Vendor antivirus software.
[insert rant about necessity of a mandatory Internet usage license]
Let's be honest: No Linux distro is suited for
those people. Only
preinstalled Linux PCs might be an answer, especially because Linux
installations normally do not get slower after years of usage.
Well, the last times I've installed, say, Redmont Windows XP
vs the "Nuernberger Windows", it was the latter that won - easily.
And both on very new hardware, which is notoriously hard for Linux.
I found WinXP to be much more difficult and time consuming to get
running properly (i.e. install drivers, service pack, patches etc.)
than with a SuSE Linux install - the latter including a hell of a
lot more applications.
Many people manage to get Windows installed (hopefully without
catching the latest worm-du-jour within 50 seconds of their first
connection to Internet and before windows update can do it's job),
there's IMHO no reason they shouldn't be able to do the same with
certain Linux distros.
As for the pre-installed Linux, you can get some. Dell has some
workstations with a Linux option, and Mr. Van den Berg from HP
Luxembourg told me that very soon those Mandrake HP Laptops should
also become available around here very soon. Server offerings have
been existing longer. I'd be surprised if there weren't more end-user
compatible offers available.
Also, LiLux still has the offer of Linux installations standing
AFAIK - IIRC anybody can come by with his/her PC at a LiLux meeting
and get an installation done (preferrably with some early warning,
but anyway...). Maybe we should mention that fact somewhere on our
website [Pascal, are you reading this? :-)]
Of course, if extremely clueless/stupid people at $Webbanking or
$ISP or $Whatever will blame anything on Linux, that's not
exactly going to help...
Greets Eric
12:40 p.m.
Eric Dondelinger wrote:
Two month ago, my girlfriend's father called me because his Win XP
preinstalled Aldi PC (with a Pentium 4!!!) became very slow with many
disk accesses. The system was a year old. I saved his data, reinstalled
everything. The result was *very* impressive. Before the reinstallation
the system wasn't usable anymore.
Especially the NT based systems suffer from this problem. DOS was almost
immune against this type of aging (for filesystem aging there was a
defrag program). Win 3.11 was based on .INI files and didn't have a
registry!
The registry based Windows systems age very quickly when you often try
out new programs.
Hmm... they *do* want to use that
printer/scanner/copier or digital
camera they buy. Getting those to work with their computer is an
administrative task. They do it on Windows.
On some Linux distributions, that's also a matter of a very few
mouseclicks. Not so on many others - to which I'd count, say,
slackware, gentoo, debian.
Don't think so. Windows is much easier. Under Windows users usually have
full administrator rights. Additionally they just have to follow the
camera's manual and insert the driver CD. That's all. Here is another
anectotical story: Before going to Englang for studying my sister needed
a laptop. I recommended an iBook. Very easy to use. Several month later
she wanted to connect a the neighbor's USB printer to her laptop.
Basically, it was very easy. MacOSX recognizes everything automatically,
the driver CD wasn't even needed. For security reasons (MacOS X is Unix
based!), there was a popup window asking the administrator's password,
before installing the printer automatically. Guess what: They waited 6
hours before deciding to call me to ask the password! They thought it
would be an error, because on the neighbors Windows machine something
like this was not needed. It wasn't even mentioned in the printers
operating manual!
I have already
seen this. There are people who buy a new PC after 3
years, because their old PC has got too slow. Not slow compared to new
technology or too slow with new demanding software. No, it has got much
slower than it was 3 years ago with the same software in absolute terms.
We all know that this is because of the aging Windows installation with
filesystem fragmentation, dead registry entries and unused DLLs. These
people do not know that they can reinstall Windows because they have
never installed it. They think that the processor becomes *tired* after
3 years!!!. Like an old car engine with a high kilometrage!
That sort of user exists, no doubt. But most users will still
ask some relative or friend first before going out to buy some
new computer. Let's also be honest and say that the problem
you're talking about is being cured (at least partially) with
the NT based systems, as the roots of much evil lay in DOS/Win9x. If we're already bashing Windows slowness,
let's not forget that
other cause: virus/worm/trojan infections, and their pseudo-cure
$Big_Vendor antivirus software.
Right.
Patrick Kaell
1:30 p.m.
Patrick Kaell wrote:
Don't think so. Windows is much easier. Under
Windows users usually have
full administrator rights. Additionally they just have to follow the
camera's manual and insert the driver CD. That's all. Here is another
anectotical story: Before going to Englang for studying my sister needed
a laptop. I recommended an iBook. Very easy to use. Several month later
she wanted to connect a the neighbor's USB printer to her laptop.
Basically, it was very easy. MacOSX recognizes everything automatically,
the driver CD wasn't even needed. For security reasons (MacOS X is Unix
based!), there was a popup window asking the administrator's password,
before installing the printer automatically. Guess what: They waited 6
hours before deciding to call me to ask the password! They thought it
would be an error, because on the neighbors Windows machine something
like this was not needed. It wasn't even mentioned in the printers
operating manual!
What I want to add:
It is easy to explain to a user why one needs to enter a password to
login or to access protected data. But try to explain why there appears
a popup window asking a password by connecting a hotpuggable device. You
would immediately get the counterquestion: But if I connect my monitor I
do not need a password. We all know why: To install a new driver you
need administrator rights. For monitors you do not need a new driver. I
even told that Apple would do this to protect the OS against worms. In
such a situation you easily get the answer: But to protect against worms
you need a antivirus software, not a password for a printer!!!!
Remember: We are not simple users, we don't know how a user thinks!
Having priviledge separation means more security. But it may touble users.
Should we now really bash Lindows/Linspire because everythings runs
under 'root'????
Unix was designed as a multiuser OS, where you had a clued admin which
did the administration. Windows is a PC OS! This is a basic fact. I
could now continue with drive letters and so on....
I remember reading an article in 1994 about Linux. It said: You can't
expect to install and master Linux in a day like DOS, Windows and OS/2.
Would it happen, than it would mean that you mananged to become a Unix
administrator overnight. This is not possible for most people!
Greetings, Patrick Kaell
3:18 p.m.
Hi,
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Patrick Kaell wrote:
[MacOS X & simple install, password protection]
Ouch, if that was too much...
Remember: We are not simple users, we don't know
how a user thinks!
Well, there is a field named "usability". I'm no expert at
all in this field, but I can assure you that people developing
GNOME, KDE etc. have at a minimum read over some texts on this.
Having priviledge separation means more security. But
it may touble users.
Should we now really bash Lindows/Linspire because everythings runs
under 'root'????
Actually, yes.
I think the main problem is marketing. A computer is a complex
machine, much more so than most others normal people deal with.
I don't think it really has to dumb down to the level of such
users as you're talking about.
It is absolutely normal that people have to learn how to use
some machine - why shouldn't they learn a minimum about the
computer they use?
When there's work to do on the car, I can either do it myself
(for simple stuff I'll do it), or ask someone who knows about
it (i.e. I go to the garage).
Same can apply to the computer. And many users will actually
go to a PC shop to get some servicing done.
If marketing suggests that a computer is simple to use for
anybody to do anything, they're lying, they're raising the
expectations a bit too high.
The solution is not to make the machine dangerously "dumb"
(and no, I don't mean to say that things can't be simplyfied),
the solution is to better educate the users.
Noone will expect anyone to drive a car without having been
schooled in driving and having passed a test. IMHO a PC is
more difficult to use than a car. Maybe you can't (easily)
kill anyone using a computer, but still, I think it's not
too much to ask that people should learn how to use such a
tool correctly.
As long as people make this kind of mistakes on some
isolated PC without interaction, it's one thing. As soon
as there is interaction, especially a connection to Internet,
they become a danger to everyone around - this is the very
reason why we have these floods of viruses, worms, trojans
etc. At this point, really, I've got very little symphathy
left for people who don't even want to learn the most basic
notions.
Unix was designed as a multiuser OS, where you had a
clued admin which
did the administration. Windows is a PC OS! This is a basic fact. I
could now continue with drive letters and so on....
I remember reading an article in 1994 about Linux. It said: You can't
expect to install and master Linux in a day like DOS, Windows and OS/2.
That's what I'm saying - there is no "mastering DOS or WINDOWS or
OS/2 in a day", that's a bold-faced lie. I've used all of these,
I've got to know them quite well (part of the reason why I like
Linux so much), and I know for a fact that any of these, even DOS,
are much too complex to "master" in a day.
Would it happen, than it would mean that you mananged
to become a Unix
administrator overnight. This is not possible for most people!
No. And if anyone believes they can become a Windows admin
overnight, I've god really bad news for them. Unfortunately,
too many PHBs have that kind of illusion.
Greets Eric
1:22 p.m.
Patrick Kaell wrote:
Let's be honest: No Linux distro is suited for
those people. Only
preinstalled Linux PCs might be an answer, especially because Linux
installations normally do not get slower after years of usage.
maybe the main problem is that no operating system is suited to be used
without a qualified sysadmin. at least the ones commonly used on pc's. i
guess what most people would be glad to use is a playstation-like pc.
just enter a cd labelled "word processing", push the "on" button and
type away. neither windows nor any linux distribution are really suited
for the average john doe. he doesn't want to waste his time installing
drivers, configuring firewalls, etc.. when he could play soccer with
his kids. the kids rather wanting to play with their playstation than
with their dad is a different matter ;)
best regards,
kymon
2:19 p.m.
Hi,
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Kymon MacDaire wrote:
Patrick Kaell wrote:
You may be kidding, but actually, I have seen recommendations
for using Knoppix (or some derivative), and have the users
store their data to an USB stick.
No more admin nightmares... at least as far as the autoconfiguration
at Knoppix boot works :-p
For standardized hardware (can you say Playstation Knoppix?),
this could indeed work out.
Greets Eric
Let's be honest: No Linux distro is suited
for those people. Only
preinstalled Linux PCs might be an answer, especially because Linux
installations normally do not get slower after years of usage.
maybe the main problem is that no operating system is suited to be used
without a qualified sysadmin. at least the ones commonly used on pc's. i
guess what most people would be glad to use is a playstation-like pc.
just enter a cd labelled "word processing", push the "on" button and
type away. neither windows nor any linux distribution are really suited
for the average john doe. he doesn't want to waste his time installing
drivers, configuring firewalls, etc.. when he could play soccer with
his kids. the kids rather wanting to play with their playstation than
with their dad is a different matter ;)
6:30 p.m.
Eric Dondelinger wrote:
Slackware and desktop? You should then specify who is
supposed
to do the necessary administration tasks.
If you read my initial post, I asked for everyone to specify what they
use, in order to get an idea what choices you made. So this was my
(example) post, and thus I am the administrator (and not grand'ma).
get external support for slackware (hint: PHBs
won't even look
at a standard SuSE or RedHat/Fedora, it has to be an "Enterprise
Desktop" version).
AFAIK, RedHat has commercial versions for the desktop (see
http://www.redhat.com/software/rhel/desktop/).
BTW, I have given up hope to get some kind of structured answer
regarding that subject. If it has to be chaos, let's blame it on the
beer. I am waiting for the next meeting and I promise I will never post
on that subject again.
;-)
7:20 p.m.
get external
support for slackware (hint: PHBs won't even look
at a standard SuSE or RedHat/Fedora, it has to be an "Enterprise
Desktop" version).
AFAIK, RedHat has commercial versions for the desktop (see
http://www.redhat.com/software/rhel/desktop/).
29 Jun
29 Jun
8:08 p.m.
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
I am not sure I should really do this, there's
been too much arguing
already. But, looking at this from a different point of view, I am
curious to know who uses *which* distro for *what* purpose.
So would you care, if you wish to participate, to send _one line per
distro you use_ to this mailing list, in the form:
My views can be found in the last posts. There already has been too many
from me ;-) Let's give the chance to others to say something.
But perhaps there is already a good webpage comparing distros? I already
have contributed a link to a webpage containing comparisons of window
managers.
If the topic already has been discussed to death and if the internet is
full of it, perhaps somebody can contribute a good link???
No, I am *not* interested in Usenet flamefests.
Patrick Kaell
1 Jul
1 Jul
7:24 a.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
| I am not sure I should really do this, there's been too much arguing
| already. But, looking at this from a different point of view, I am
| curious to know who uses *which* distro for *what* purpose.
|
| So would you care, if you wish to participate, to send _one line per
| distro you use_ to this mailing list, in the form:
|
| distro 1: purpose 1
| distro 2: purpose 2
| [...]
|
Fedora C1: desktop at work -> we wanted to stay on the RedHat line
Suse9.1: desktop on my PC and laptop -> useful for giving courses
Debian sarge: test PC
RedHat 7.2: Production servers at work (should go to Fedora C2 when I finally get
time to repackage our software)
Fedora C1 (upgraded from RH9): Lilux server -> I's working.
| Disto in the sense of Unix/Linux flavour.
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| Lilux-help mailing list
| Lilux-help(a)lilux.lu
| http://lilux.lu/mailman/listinfo/lilux-help
- --
Thierry Coutelier Président LiLux asbl
7, Rue Jacques Sturm L-2556 Luxembourg
Office:+352 710725 608 Home:+352 406776
http://www.linux.lu/
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8:37 a.m.
distro 1: purpose 1
distro 2: purpose 2
[...]
Disto in the sense of Unix/Linux flavour.
At Work:
--------
* RedHat Enterprise Linux (versions 2.1 & 3.0): installed on all Oracle
Linux systems
* RedHat 7.3: installed on non database servers
* Slackware 9.1: installed on non database servers (reasons: security,
minimalist approach, end of consumer RedHat)
* AIX (versions 4.3.3, 5.1, 5.2): on bigger (and expensive) systems and
high availability systems
At Home:
--------
* Slackware 9.1: on my main PC
* Yellow Dog 3.0.1: RedHat/Fedora based distro for Apple computers:
installed on my iBook (Slackware doens't run on Apple if you overlook
Slackintosh)
* MacOS X: nice BSD based OS with a nice object oriented framework
derived from NextStep (source compatible with GNUstep!!!). Also runs
apps like Gimp, etc. if you install X
* RedHat 9.0: installed on my girlfriend's PC, mainly because of the
same look of Gnome & KDE apps (Bluecurve) und the similarity with Yellow
Dog I have on the laptop
* NetBSD 1.6: installed on my SparcClassic serving as a firewall
* Solaris 8: installed on my SparcStation 5 to have a machine to learn
and hack with Solaris (wonderful OS in his own right)
Also installed on my main PC on other partitions: OpenBSD 3.5, Solaris 8
x86, FreeBSD
Patrick Kaell
1:50 p.m.
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
I am not sure I should really do this, there's
been too much arguing
already. But, looking at this from a different point of view, I am
curious to know who uses *which* distro for *what* purpose.
So would you care, if you wish to participate, to send _one line per
distro you use_ to this mailing list, in the form:
distro 1: purpose 1
distro 2: purpose 2
[...]
Disto in the sense of Unix/Linux flavour.
_______________________________________________
Lilux-help mailing list
Lilux-help(a)lilux.lu
http://lilux.lu/mailman/listinfo/lilux-help
Work
****
SuSE 9.0: local email & dns servers; tape backup
Home
****
SuSE 9.0: normal home use, internet, multimedia etc
--
Martin DRAKE Tel: +352 33.77.70
Geophysicist Fax: +352 33.95.70
European Geophysical Services sa http://www.egs.lu
1, rue du Chemin de Fer : L-8378 KLEINBETTINGEN : Luxembourg
----------------------------------------------------------------------
3:10 p.m.
Hi,
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
> I am not sure I should really do this, there's been too much arguing
> already. But, looking at this from a different point of view, I am
> curious to know who uses *which* distro for *what* purpose.
>
> So would you care, if you wish to participate, to send _one line per
> distro you use_ to this mailing list, in the form:
>
> distro 1: purpose 1
> distro 2: purpose 2
> [...]
>
> Disto in the sense of Unix/Linux flavour.
Work, including colleagues' desktops:
(quite some different machines)
Debian stable: mailserver, webserver, DNS, mysql, postgresql, ...
RedHat 7.3: Veritas NetBackup, CheckPoint FW-1, samba
Solaris: Lotus Domino, sendmail, bind
Debian testing: desktop & development
Debian unstable: desktop
MacOS X: desktop & dev
Mandrake: desktop & dev
(now retired:) HP/UX: sendmail/apache/msql/bind
Knoppix: rescue, restore, demo
Home:
Debian testing: router, webserver, desktop (Athlon 800, Pentium 90)
Gentoo: desktop (laptop)
SuSE 8.2: test desktop (K6-2 350)
OpenBSD: test system (DEC 3000)
Debian stable: desktop (old laptop)
Debian stable: test system (AlphaServer 1000A)
Debian testing: test system (Sun Ultra 30)
Debian stable: test system, soon router (Sun SparcStation 20)
Knoppix: demo, rescue
formerly tested/used: FreeBSD, NetBSD, RedHat, Mandrake, IPCop,
Slackware, GNUSTEP live CD, FreeSBIE (live FreeBSD), SuSE (older
versions), ...
As yet untested: Tru64, SystemRescueCD
Greets Eric
P.S.: I notice noone's dared to write up a Windows system with
Cygwin ;-)
7:50 p.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
Thanks for the recent answers. I am still trying to find the best way to
interpret this data, but the current result is:
Most used on Desktop : SuSE
Most used on Server : RedHat
Most used alround solution: Slackware
Only life CD : Knoppix
Does this make any sense to you?
-pu
8:03 p.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
On Thu, Jul 01, 2004 at 09:50:15PM +0200, Patrick Useldinger wrote:
Thanks for the recent answers. I am still trying to
find the best way to
interpret this data, but the current result is:
Most used on Desktop : SuSE
Most used on Server : RedHat
Most used alround solution: Slackware
Only life CD : Knoppix
Does this make any sense to you?
Well yes and this is really valuable info for the wiki page
http://www.linux.lu/wiki/index.php/DistroMatrix you would be really kind if you can add
this ;)
cheers
-pu
_______________________________________________
Lilux-help mailing list
Lilux-help(a)lilux.lu
http://lilux.lu/mailman/listinfo/lilux-help
--
Pascal Steichen
pascal.steichen(a)linux.lu
Lilux ASBL
www.lilux.lu
" Linux is like a woman, hard to understand
But very nice once you get under the hood. "
2 Jul
2 Jul
9:24 p.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
Pascal Steichen wrote:
Well yes and this is really valuable info for the wiki
page
I've done my updates, and now the page really needs more input and
feedback, especially the parts III and IV.
Take a minute to visit and to add your ideas to
http://www.linux.lu/wiki/index.php/DistroMatrix .
-pu
3 Jul
3 Jul
8:01 a.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
Pascal Steichen wrote:
I already *like* this page! Well done!
Greetings, Patrick Kaell
Well yes and this is really valuable info for the
wiki page
I've done my updates, and now the page really needs more input and
feedback, especially the parts III and IV.
Take a minute to visit and to add your ideas to
http://www.linux.lu/wiki/index.php/DistroMatrix .
5 Jul
5 Jul
4:35 p.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
Good. With all the suggestions you made in an earlier
thread, I am sure
you will be able to add a lot of information yourself ;-)
How do I edit the Wiki page? I just got an account on sendar as I
registered myself as a Lilux member. But the sendar password does not
work for the Wiki ;-)
Greetings, Patrick Kaell
8:45 p.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
Patrick Kaell wrote:
How do I edit the Wiki page? I just got an account on
sendar as I
registered myself as a Lilux member. But the sendar password does not
work for the Wiki ;-)
Just enter PatrickKaell as your username, and no password. There seems
to be no protection.
-pu
6 Jul
6 Jul
7:59 a.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
Patrick Kaell wrote:
Thanks. I just added some distros in the 'recommendation table'.
Patrick Kaell
How do I edit the Wiki page? I just got an
account on sendar as I
registered myself as a Lilux member. But the sendar password does not
work for the Wiki ;-)
Just enter PatrickKaell as your username, and no password. There seems
to be no protection. 
24 Jul
24 Jul
8:37 p.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
Patrick Kaell a écrit :
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
Good page yet. What about
Linspire, Sun JDS and IBM distribution ? If
the club wants a Sun JDS, I can ship it one for free.
--
Brent Frère
Private e-mail: Brent(a)BFrere.net
Postal address: 5, rue de Mamer
L-8280 Kehlen
Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg
European Union
Mobile: +352-021/29.05.98
Fax: +352-26.30.05.96
Home: +352-307.341
URL: http://BFrere.net
Pascal Steichen wrote:
Take a minute to visit and to add your ideas to
http://www.linux.lu/wiki/index.php/DistroMatrix
1 Jul
1 Jul
8:07 p.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
Thanks for the recent answers. I am still trying to
find the best way to
interpret this data, but the current result is:
Most used on Desktop : SuSE
Most used on Server : RedHat
Most used alround solution: Slackware
Only life CD : Knoppix
Does this make any sense to you?
Yes, this perfectly makes sense to me. Where do you put Debian? Most
used test platform? (at least if you interpret the replies!)
Patrick Kaell
8:39 p.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
Patrick Kaell wrote:
Yes, this perfectly makes sense to me. Where do you
put Debian? Most
used test platform? (at least if you interpret the replies!)
Debian Stable: used as often as a server as it is used as a test platform
Debian Testing: used as often as a desktop as it is used as a test platform
-pu
5 Jul
5 Jul
5:49 p.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
On Thu, 2004-07-01 at 22:07, Patrick Kaell wrote:
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
Debian __Sarge__ is a test version of Debian...
AFAIK Debian Woody is presently the release version...
so using Debian Sarge on a test PC makes sense (using it in a production
is less than reliable)
this is what most of those who answered your question do...
I know several who use a Debian Woody on production env.
and many who use patched and fixed Debian Sarge on their main system
:-) but they're not newbies :-O
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Serge Marelli, Luxembourg
E-mail : serge.marelli(a)linux.lu
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LiLux, Luxembourg LUG : http://www.linux.lu/
Defending Innovation against Patent Inflation http://swpat.ffii.org/
Thanks for the recent answers. I am still trying
to find the best way to
interpret this data, but the current result is:
Most used on Desktop : SuSE
Most used on Server : RedHat
Most used alround solution: Slackware
Only life CD : Knoppix
Does this make any sense to you?
Yes, this perfectly makes sense to me. Where do you put Debian? Most
used test platform? (at least if you interpret the replies!)
7:06 p.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
Serge Marelli wrote:
this is what most of those who answered your question
do...
I was not the person who asked the question (follow the thread). I just
made a remark ;-)
I know several who use a Debian Woody on production
env.
and many who use patched and fixed Debian Sarge on their main system
:-) but they're not newbies :-O
I know about the stable/unstable/testing releases of Debian. I just
thought it was funny because many Debian users indicated testing as a
purpose ;-) As Debian was missing from the summary list, I just wrote
this line. Nothing to take too seriously ;-)
Patrick Kaell
8:49 p.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
Serge Marelli wrote:
Debian __Sarge__ is a test version of Debian...
AFAIK Debian Woody is presently the release version...
so using Debian Sarge on a test PC makes sense (using it in a production
is less than reliable)
What I was trying to say is that it is a test system for as many people
as it is a production system. This was not the case for any other
distribution; they were either essentially production or essentially
test systems.
-pu
6 Jul
6 Jul
7 a.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
What I was trying to say is that it is a test system
for as many people
as it is a production system. This was not the case for any other
distribution; they were either essentially production or essentially
test systems.
The test systems do not match the production systems. I *know* that
testing/unstable releases are more stable than many other distros (look
at WindowMaker, it's still beta (0.80.2) ;-)
Debian is very popular by people reading this list. But it is still
missing on the wiki page (chapter: what do other people use).
Would it not be interesting to know for what purpose people use Debian
testing for? Maybe Debian users do not mind if their distro is not
represented properly on the wiki page ;-)
Greetings, Patrick Kaell
6:34 a.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
Hi,
On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, Serge Marelli wrote:
Debian __Sarge__ is a test version of Debian...
AFAIK Debian Woody is presently the release version...
Yup. And unstable is Sid.
http://www.debian.org/releases/
so using Debian Sarge on a test PC makes sense (using
it in a production
is less than reliable)
... which could be debatable. Some say a Debian unstable is more
stable than many other distribution's release version.
I've had trouble myself with unstable, which is why I'm staying
away from it.
I do use stable on a number of production machines, except for
those few running RedHat - which only run RedHat as they are used
for commercial software only certified for that platform.
I wouldn't like stable on the desktop though, as the packages are
relatively old - that's why I use testing there - it's very recent
stuff, sufficiently stable, and the world won't die if the desktop
system goes down the drain in the unlikely event that some serious
bug remains (and it won't, at least if you don't start mixing in
too many strange apt sources).
As an addition to this discussion: SlashDot has an article on a
comparison between the "three big distros":
<http://slashdot.org/articles/04/07/05/2347210.shtml?tid=106&tid=117&tid=185&tid=190&tid=99>
I didn't read it all, but maybe those who started the thread will...
Greets, Eric
24 Jul
24 Jul
6:53 p.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
The experience we have with most of our Plan-Net customers is that they
are not ready to pay the 1250 € for SuSE SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise
Server) nor the more expensive RehHat distribution. We try to convinde
them to pay a copy of SuSE Linux Professional (~95 €), with success, but
since there is no such RedHat distribution, we don't install ANY RedHat
Linux on ANY of our customer's servers.
I would be surprised that RedHat is still the most used distribution in
Luxembourg on servers. Maybe true historically, but this is no more the
trend, then consequently not the advice to give to our members. SuSE is
used by IBM and Sun, supported by Oracle, ... I am a previous user of RH
and have all goodies, and even a red hat, but with the lost of RedHat
for end-users, I can't use it professionally anymore. The server edition
is just too expensive. By the way, I red that the last desktop edition
of RH is not even able to be installed on ANY previous RH distribution.
You have to start from a newly formatted partition. I can't sell this to
anybody. Sorry for RH.
I think we should split Linux distros classification in three parts:
1) Fully supported commercial editions (SuSE SLES, Sun JDS with
maintenance contract or RedHat Linux)
2) Commercial editions with limited services such as limited help-desk
or online updates (SuSE, Mandrake, Sun JDS...)
3) Community supported editions (such as Fedora, Debian, Gentoo...)
By the way, I don't even know exactly where to put Slackware, IBM Linux
nor Knoppix in there. This top-level classification is the one that is
the most relevant to professional customers: is it really backed by a
great name ? What are the evolution path ? What guarantee do we have on
availability of services and updates ? ... No customer will go for class
3 distros. No are ready yet to face the price of class 1 up to now, so
my experience is that professional users are all using class 2 distros
at the time. Thinks can change for sure, especially with Sun JDS that is
billed ~80 €/seat with limited service, backed by a very famous computer
company, and that is fully supported with an optional maintenance contract.
Just my 0.5 eurocent.
Patrick Useldinger a écrit :
Thanks for the recent answers. I am still trying to
find the best way
to interpret this data, but the current result is:
Most used on Desktop : SuSE
Most used on Server : RedHat
Most used alround solution: Slackware
Only life CD : Knoppix
Does this make any sense to you?
-pu
_______________________________________________
Lilux-help mailing list
Lilux-help(a)lilux.lu
http://lilux.lu/mailman/listinfo/lilux-help
--
Brent Frère
Private e-mail: Brent(a)BFrere.net
Postal address: 5, rue de Mamer
L-8280 Kehlen
Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg
European Union
Mobile: +352-021/29.05.98
Fax: +352-26.30.05.96
Home: +352-307.341
URL: http://BFrere.net
9:08 p.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
On Sat, 2004-07-24 at 20:53, Brent Frère wrote:
3) Community supported editions (such as Fedora, Debian, Gentoo...)
[ ... ]
... No customer will go for class 3 distros
FYI, the isp of your previous employer is putting in place a whole new
kind of banking plateform for a AAA bank (they are only 5 in the world
...) solely based on Debian.
We've just passed all the security tests from a well known belgian
security company and expect to go live sometimes before the end of the
year.
Convincing those people to get away from the comfort of commercial
support in favour of the security of knowing exactely what the code
does, wasn't that easy.
As expected they wanted originally the full commercial solution (Win +
CheckPoint firewalls), we then managed to convince them that RedHat +
CheckPoint was an equally viable solution.
In the end, after we explained them in *big details* who was behind
Debian and how their software was produced, tested and maintained, they
finally accepted a debian (stable obviously !)+ iptables solution.
In order to reassure themselves they insist on talking about "the Debian
Group" .... ;-) ... but we won't contradict them as this could be a big
step for the credibility of opensource (at least in Luxembourg).
a+
Parick.
25 Jul
25 Jul
3:26 p.m.
New subject: Inventory as of 01/07/2004
On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 11:08:54PM +0200, Patrick LEMMERS wrote:
On Sat, 2004-07-24 at 20:53, Brent Frère wrote:
This is really interessting and valuable information, but as you don't mention them I
think it is still confidential, isn't it? However I'm really enthousiastic on
having more detailed info about this issue. If possible we could maybe share info via a
more secure channel ?
ciao,
pst
3) Community supported editions (such as Fedora, Debian, Gentoo...)
[ ... ]
... No customer will go for class 3 distros
FYI, the isp of your previous employer is putting in place a whole new
kind of banking plateform for a AAA bank (they are only 5 in the world
...) solely based on Debian.
We've just passed all the security tests from a well known belgian
security company and expect to go live sometimes before the end of the
year.
Convincing those people to get away from the comfort of commercial
support in favour of the security of knowing exactely what the code
does, wasn't that easy.
As expected they wanted originally the full commercial solution (Win +
CheckPoint firewalls), we then managed to convince them that RedHat +
CheckPoint was an equally viable solution.
In the end, after we explained them in *big details* who was behind
Debian and how their software was produced, tested and maintained, they
finally accepted a debian (stable obviously !)+ iptables solution.
In order to reassure themselves they insist on talking about "the Debian
Group" .... ;-) ... but we won't contradict them as this could be a big
step for the credibility of opensource (at least in Luxembourg).
a+
Parick.
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Pascal Steichen
pascal.steichen(a)linux.lu
Lilux ASBL
www.lilux.lu
" Linux is like a woman, hard to understand
But very nice once you get under the hood. "
7237
days inactive
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35 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Brent Frère -
Eric Dondelinger -
Kymon MacDaire -
Martin Drake -
Pascal Steichen -
Patrick Kaell -
Patrick LEMMERS -
Patrick Useldinger -
Serge Marelli -
Thierry Coutelier