28 Jun
2004
28 Jun
'04
4:04 p.m.
excuse me?
i _fully_ disagree with your opinion.
Are you sure? A distro is only a fraction of all the things you have to
choose. You have to start sometime. You can always change the distro
later. Really. You are a good example for this (you have used all sorts
of distros). You can even dual boot different distros and share the swap
partition, the /home partition (uid and gid must be the same) and the
/usr/local partition (for the self compiled programs). a distro is
_VERY_ important.
not every distro is the same, not every distro feels the same or has the
same "features".
As long as you are not *working*, this might make a big difference. As
soon as the system is set up, people sometimes want also to do some
*productive* things with their system. And then they may have chosen the
best distro but still do not known if they should take mplayer or xine
to watch movies for example. i've been
using over the years, all sorts of distros, and the one and
only i really feel comfortable with right now, is gentoo.
why? because it's source based, because it has IMO, the best package
manager and system of them all, because _"I"_ have the freedom to do
whatever i want,
Sometimes, if you are a C programmer, you will not take the Gentoo
package, but download the source right away from the project's homepage
and modify things *yourself* for your needs. The Gentoo database will
not know that this software is installed on your system (unless you
package it yourself and take the pain to define the dependencies). The
next time you install a Gentoo package that needs the software, it will
install the package a second time without your patch. That's the reason why I prefer distros without
dependency checking. You
have seen a nice text editor optimized for LaTeX files? But you don't
need LaTeX, you want to use the editor anyway for other things? What if
the package maintainer of the LaTeX editor has decided for you that
there is a dependency, 'emerge editorxyz' will also install LaTeX,
unless you break dependencies explicitly.
NO!!!!!!!
ever heard of the "USE" variable ?
as i said b4, your assumptions may be right for suse, rh, mandr, deb,
whatever, but NOT!!!! for gentoo.
Anyway, Gentoo does even not use the original software
from the
project's homepage, but specially patched versions.
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gentoo does mirror the software on many many servers. if the source-package is
not found there, it downloads it from the author's page.
but it may as well only download it from the author's page.
what is the problem with that?
i still don't see any.
and that gentoo patches _EVERY_ software is just plain wrong.
they do apply patches to some software, to fix bugs, or whatever.
but those patches are generally patches from the mailinglist of that project
or so.
That is not how *I* define freedom! Freedom means to
be independent from
the distro, and (all Gentoo users should listen now) from the network
connection!
let me tell you this....before you judge about something and make assumptions
about something you have obviously no clue about, TAKE THE TIME TO READ DOCS
AND GET A CLUE ABOUT IT!
I want to be able to recover from a disc crash at
*any* time by
reinstalling the distro from CD, reinstalling all patches and
applications from my archive and by restoring my data from my latest
backup. What if the Gentoo people have given up the distro yesterday?
You will not able to reinstall your system. You do not have paid for it,
there is no guarantee that the Gentoo service will last forever.
yes you will be able.
what if slackware will be discontinued?
did you pay for it?
who cares if you paid for something, when they give it up?
your arguments are pretty bad.
gentoo people have grp's or bins, and yes we do have recue and live cds as
well.
read above...i don't wanna re-write everything...
If Patrick Volkering gives up Slackware tomorrow, I
will have plenty of
time to migrate, because I have saved a copy of everything I downloaded
and installed. I own my hardware and have everything under my control.
so do i.
and i bet i have more control over my distro than you have over yours
What about servers? If you have servers, it is
important to keep them
all on the same patch level. If you install new patches, it is very wise
to test them on a test platform for a few weeks (new packages *can*
introduce problems). After the test, you have to install the tested
packages, even if there are newer ones on the distros servers. 'emerge
world' just doesn't cut it on servers! And our servers aren't even
connected to the internet!
better inform yourself about what you write....
But that is even the opposite of what you did.
Didn't you find your
favorite distro by *using* Linux instead of thinking before using??? Why
do you recommend to the people a different learning curve than for
yourself?
by think i include try.
maybe not try for years, but try.
sorry that i wasn't more explicit about that.
I never said otherwise. I only said that it may not be
as important as
we all think.
that's your opinion.
not mine.
--
regards,
Georges Toth
28 Jun
28 Jun
7:17 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
a fraction?
what is a distro? what makes up a distro?
- the package management
- init tools
- system management tools
did i forget anything?
Yes of course, it is only a fraction. If you would calculate it in
Megabytes, I would say that all the tings you mentioned take up a order
of magnitude less space than let's say KDE alone. There is also many
more work in terms of man/year behind projects like Gnome, KDE, Mozilla,
etc. than behind the entire Gentoo project.
those 3 points (and mayba more) are different from
distro to distro
(if you leave clones out).
those three points are very important to me when choosing a distro.
I know that choosing a distro is important. I have already written much
about the pros and crons of different distros in the last posts. I only
wanted to highlight that it is by far not the only thing to think about.
For example Pascal Steichen also proposed to cover then KDE / Gnome issue.
etc.... it doesn't matter what distro you use and
it matters more
whether you choose xine or mplayer.
mplayer and xine was just an example. A Windows LISP programmer
migrating to Linux will far be more interested in choosing the right
LISP environment (GNU Lisp or another implementation) than the distro.
Believe me. A mathemetician will be more likeley to be interested by the
differences of Maple and Mathematica than the distro. Same with
databases: Migrating from AIX with Oracle to Linux with Oracle is far
easier then migrating from AIX with Oracle to AIX with DB2. Especially
if you have much PL/SQL code.
sorry, but do you have any clue about gentoo ?
NO!!!!!!!
ever heard of the "USE" variable ?
as i said b4, your assumptions may be right for suse, rh, mandr, deb,
whatever, but NOT!!!! for gentoo.
let me tell you this....before you judge about something and make assumptions
about something you have obviously no clue about, TAKE THE TIME TO READ DOCS
AND GET A CLUE ABOUT IT!
You are right. I have no clue about Gentoo. I had already decided to
give it a try two weeks ago, but found no time. I *will* give it a try
in a month when I will have much more time.
Your explanations are good. Gentoo seems to have far less disadvantages
than I thought.
I should not have judge it.
But I still have the opinion, that people who are following this
mailinglist and who have a hard time to choose a distro should begin
with experimenting. Patrick Useldinger has already read things about
distros and he has already tried FreeBSD. If you reach a dead point, you
should take *any* distro. Asking the mailinglist may not bring a
solution, because everybody recommends his favorite distro, which is
understandable. Every distro has pros and cons. But no major distro is
really a bad choice! You can even take SuSE to build a firewall, I only
must spend a bit more time uninstalling unneeded things and to get the
permissions right. You can harden all Linux distros, it is just easier
to do it with some distros.
i agree with you that if you don't care whats
under the hood, etc, and
just want to work, no matter how
You seem to have difficulties to understand that there are people who
*care* about whats under the hood, but still have a hard time to choose.
Otherwise, it would be very simple for them, they would just choose the
distro with the prettiest logo and name!!!
yes you will be able.
what if slackware will be discontinued?
did you pay for it?
Yes, I always order the CDs. But this is only to support the distro. I
have *no* contractual guarantee (like you).
who cares if you paid for something, when they give it
up?
your arguments are pretty bad.
Maybe. It doesn't matter if you paid for it. You are right at this
point. But you still have no control over it.
I still think that it is important to be not too dependend of the
network connection. Maybe you move to a new appartment without
possibilities to have DSL or Cable. Maybe SCO manages to shutdown the
Gentoo and Slackware servers by court (and having special contracts with
RedHat). I have already seen this. There have been nice Aqua like themes
on www.themes.org. These have been removed overnight (because of Apple).
Glad were those who still had a local copy! You have explained that it
*is* possible with Gentoo to store the software archives locally. Good.
I am wrong in judging Gentoo.
Nobody can take you away what you have stored locally. Some people might
now think that I exagerate. Imagine you have stored important files in a
specific format (be it xfig, abiword, ...). Imagine you reinstall your
system without this app, because you don't need it. After a year you
must access this files and find that this app has been shut down because
of software patents. People who have installed everything over the
network and who have no CDs of older versions then have a problem.
The advantage of OSS is that you have the source and nobody can take it
away. With network based installations people lose an important aspect
of OSS.
so do i.
and i bet i have more control over my distro than you have over yours
Maybe.
by think i include try.
maybe not try for years, but try.
sorry that i wasn't more explicit about that.
But I explicitly told that people should try in a former post.
I never said
otherwise. I only said that it may not be as important as
we all think.
that's your opinion. 
7:45 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Patrick Kaell wrote:
But I still have the opinion, that people who are
following this
mailinglist and who have a hard time to choose a distro should begin
with experimenting. Patrick Useldinger has already read things about
distros and he has already tried FreeBSD. If you reach a dead point, you
should take *any* distro.
Any distro is not a good choice, it's actually no choice at all.
I believe that it should be possible, with a minimal number of
questions, to point you in a direction that will not frustrate you right
away. If a newbie chooses Gentoo, I am sure he will be lost. A person
who knows things about Linux may be extremely pleased. That could have
been clarified in one simple question. Add a few more, and you're
probably close to a good answer.
If anybody still cares, I've just installed Slackware 10 and I have, for
the first time after FreeBSD, a *very* good feeling. I think I'll like
this one.
Thanks to Patrick Kaell for recommending it.
-pu
8:58 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
Patrick Kaell wrote:
Distros are sometimes like religions. People can get very emotional on
this topic. I try to stay neutral (I said I try ;-) I am pleased to hear
if someone uses the distro I recommended, but I try to evitate to
manipulate too much and to put someone too much into one direction. I do
not want to dicriminate other distro users, because their distro is not
bad either. The same way as I am a Christian, I will not tell a Jew that
he will not get into heaven by staying Jewish ;-)
But I still have the opinion, that people who are
following this
mailinglist and who have a hard time to choose a distro should begin
with experimenting. Patrick Useldinger has already read things about
distros and he has already tried FreeBSD. If you reach a dead point, you
should take *any* distro.
Any distro is not a good choice, it's actually no choice at all. I believe that it should be possible, with a minimal
number of
questions, to point you in a direction that will not frustrate you right
away.
I wasn't frustrated ;-) By reading your profile, I thought Slackware
would be the best for you (heavily biased opinion of course ;-). As you
told that you were primarly a user and not a geek, I wasn't sure anymore
and recommended Fedora as an alternative solution.
If a newbie chooses Gentoo, I am sure he will be lost.
A person
who knows things about Linux may be extremely pleased. That could have
been clarified in one simple question. Add a few more, and you're
probably close to a good answer.
If anybody still cares, I've just installed Slackware 10 and I have, for
the first time after FreeBSD, a *very* good feeling. I think I'll like
this one.
Good. Now you have passed the dead point ;-) You have now installed a
distro that is not too complicated for new users, but that is also more
streamlined and simple than the fully automatized desktop distros (like
RH, SuSE, Mandrake). Good choice ;-)
By the way, you will see that OpenOffice is missing. You can download a
precompiled binary from the site http://www.openoffice.org that works on
any distro. Installation is a breeze (thanks to the graphical
installer). If you do not want to install OpenOffice in every home
directory (which takes over 220 Mb per user), remember to run the setup
program as root with the option -net: ./setup -net. After the root
install, run the setup program in the destination directory (not the
setup of the unpacked archive you ran as root) as a normal user. This
will take no more than 2Mb per user.
How did you get Slack 10? By bittorrend or thanks a mirror? Last time I
checked, no mirror had the new version. Anyways, I will not have the
time to try the next month.
Thanks to Patrick Kaell for recommending it.
Thanks for trying it :-)))
Patrick Kaell
9:11 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Patrick Kaell wrote:
I wasn't frustrated ;-) By reading your profile,
I thought Slackware
would be the best for you (heavily biased opinion of course ;-). As you
told that you were primarly a user and not a geek, I wasn't sure anymore
and recommended Fedora as an alternative solution.
I am a user who wants to become a geek ;-)
How did you get Slack 10? By bittorrend or thanks a
mirror? Last time I
checked, no mirror had the new version. Anyways, I will not have the
time to try the next month.
I've tried to download it, but it felt like participating in a DDoS
attack. Then I saw that my favorite dealer (http://www.liniso.de/)
already announced it last Thursday. I ordered it on Friday morning and
received it today. These guys are great!
-pu
11:30 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Any distro is not a good choice, it's actually no
choice at all.
please elaborate...
If a newbie chooses Gentoo, I am sure he will be lost.
depending on how you define "newbie".
if you define as newbie, someone who just has met his first pc....well you are
absolutely right.
but if you call a newbie, someone who knows well, how to cope with windooze,
and just migrates....you are wrong....tottally wrong.
i know enough people migrating from windows to gentoo, and none had any
problems, actually they loved it.
--
regards,
Georges Toth
29 Jun
29 Jun
1:47 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Georges Toth wrote:
depending on how you define "newbie".
if you define as newbie, someone who just has met his first pc....well you are
absolutely right.
but if you call a newbie, someone who knows well, how to cope with windooze,
and just migrates....you are wrong....tottally wrong.
i know enough people migrating from windows to gentoo, and none had any
problems, actually they loved it.
This is what I mean: People will get very emotional about distros. There
will be no consensus. A comparison matrix (no matter what it looks like)
will not be accepted by all readers on this list. It's like a religion ;-)
Take any distro you like ;---)))))) Or try them all. Last but not least:
only take the distro *I* recommend ;-)
People only recommend their favorite distro.... Sadly but true. Maybe I
am no exception.
What about Debian and SuSE users? They seem to be quiet, lately. Perhaps
because of the fact, that if you *really* use a good distro, you will
not need to participate in flame wars (excuse me: discussions ;-)
Patrick Kaell
4:38 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Hi,
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Patrick Kaell wrote:
This is what I mean: People will get very emotional
about distros. There
will be no consensus. A comparison matrix (no matter what it looks like)
will not be accepted by all readers on this list. It's like a religion ;-)
True. There's been way too many flamewars on this subject anyway.
People only recommend their favorite distro.... Sadly
but true. Maybe I
am no exception.
Not true. I personnally don't use SuSE. I still recommend it for
newbies. Some people will be forced to use SuSE because they have
to run some proprietary packaged certified & supported only on
that distro (and perhaps only for a specific version of it).
I happen to have that last problem (with RedHat) at the office.
What about Debian and SuSE users? They seem to be
quiet, lately. Perhaps
because of the fact, that if you *really* use a good distro, you will
not need to participate in flame wars (excuse me: discussions ;-)
No, there's simply no point. Stand above such bullshit. But do
feel free to slam distros that really don't get it (such as Lindows
having all done always by root) ;-)
Greets Eric
5:38 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Eric Dondelinger wrote:
No, there's simply no point. Stand above such
bullshit. But do
feel free to slam distros that really don't get it (such as Lindows
having all done always by root) ;-)
It is not really helpful to say that other people's concerns are bullshit.
-pu
6:24 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Hi,
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Patrick Useldinger wrote:
Eric Dondelinger wrote:
When the concerns have been discussed to death, and there's
no single answer, resp. it is essentially a question of
religion, I really don't see a point in continuing/repeating
a discussion, and I consider it a waste of time. Sorry if I
chose too hard a word to describe this.
I've found there's no single distribution fulfilling all
needs anyway - choose the one that best fits the needs,
based on your experience, or based on the experience of
those people who need to solve problems when they arise.
My 0.02 EUR, Eric (user of several Linux distros, BSDs and UNIX
variants)
No, there's simply no point. Stand above
such bullshit. But do
feel free to slam distros that really don't get it (such as Lindows
having all done always by root) ;-)
It is not really helpful to say that other people's concerns are bullshit.
6:36 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Eric Dondelinger wrote:
When the concerns have been discussed to death, and
there's
no single answer, resp. it is essentially a question of
religion, I really don't see a point in continuing/repeating
a discussion, and I consider it a waste of time. Sorry if I
chose too hard a word to describe this.
I certainly believe that you have discussed this to death already.
But the problem remains one for everybody who considers trying Linux. I
cannot believe that people who have sufficient knowledge and who have
discussed the matter, and thus know the different points of view, just
watch the newbie struggling, "oh, he'll be alright sooner or later".
The objective of Lilux is to promote Linux, so why not help new users
with "everybody's first problem"?
-pu
7:40 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Hi,
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Patrick Useldinger wrote:
Eric Dondelinger wrote:
Actually, I didn't feel the need to take part. It suffices to
watch some people's ravings on Usenet for instance.
When the concerns have been discussed to death,
and there's
no single answer, resp. it is essentially a question of
religion, I really don't see a point in continuing/repeating
a discussion, and I consider it a waste of time. Sorry if I
chose too hard a word to describe this.
I certainly believe that you have discussed this to death already. But the problem remains one for everybody who
considers trying Linux. I
cannot believe that people who have sufficient knowledge and who have
discussed the matter, and thus know the different points of view, just
watch the newbie struggling, "oh, he'll be alright sooner or later".
The objective of Lilux is to promote Linux, so why not help new users
with "everybody's first problem"?
Maybe we could find some typical flamefests as archived on google
groups, and link to those. I don't really think it would be too
helpful.
I'd rather believe in the hands-on approach. If someone's
progressed sufficiently to start administering his/her system,
just show them the different approaches, from the different
distros. Have people shoot themselves in the foot and learn
from their mistakes. They'll quickly enough learn the advantages/
disadvantages of the different variants, and form their own
(informed) opinions. I don't think this is something that can
be deduced from some matrix on a web page.
If we're talking "Otto Normalverbraucher", you'll need to use
something that dumbs things down as far as possible - there,
you can throw out most distros, maybe a couple of them will
fit the bill. If the person wants to tinker around some, but
not too much, the choice gets a little wider. For pros, the
choice gets still wider, but some "too dumb" distros will
fall back out... really, it's almost a case-by-case study
each time. No simple answer.
Greets Eric
30 Jun
30 Jun
12:33 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
depending on
how you define "newbie".
if you define as newbie, someone who just has met his first pc....well
you are absolutely right.
but if you call a newbie, someone who knows well, how to cope with
windooze, and just migrates....you are wrong....tottally wrong.
i know enough people migrating from windows to gentoo, and none had any
problems, actually they loved it.
This is what I mean: People will get very emotional about distros. There
will be no consensus. A comparison matrix (no matter what it looks like)
will not be accepted by all readers on this list. It's like a religion ;-)
Take any distro you like ;---)))))) Or try them all. Last but not least:
only take the distro *I* recommend ;-) People only recommend their favorite distro.... Sadly
but true. Maybe I
am no exception.
depends.
if the user just wants a running system and doesn't want to cope with it more
in detail, i wouldn't recommend gentoo.
i would rather go for mandr, lindows, whatever.
--
regards,
Georges Toth
29 Jun
29 Jun
2:05 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Any distro is not a good choice, it's actually no
choice at all.
I think that I expressed myself badly.
What I really mean is the following:
*** The optimal distro is better than any distro! Of course! ***
But if you do not know what's your optimal distro looks like the
following is true:
*** Any distro is better than no distro. You have to start sometime! ***
Perhaps after trying *any* distro you will have a better idea how your
optimal distro should look like.
Patrick Kaell
5:37 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Patrick Kaell wrote:
Perhaps after trying *any* distro you will have a
better idea how your
optimal distro should look like.
The only thing I will agree to at this point is to discuss this in
private with you over a glass of beer!
;-)
-pu
8:01 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
The only thing I will agree to at this point is to
discuss this in
private with you over a glass of beer!
;-)
Yes. Sometimes it is easier to communicate face to face instead of over
the cyperspace! ;-)
Patrick Kaell
8:20 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
On Tuesday 29 June 2004 22:01, Patrick Kaell wrote:
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
Its always better to discuss things after consuming some social lubricant. :)
Count me in!
Mike
The only thing I will agree to at this point is
to discuss this in
private with you over a glass of beer!
;-)
Yes. Sometimes it is easier to communicate face to face instead of over
the cyperspace! ;-)
30 Jun
30 Jun
12:35 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
On Tuesday 29 June 2004 22:01, Patrick Kaell wrote:
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
i second that!
and there might be less misunderstandings...sometimes... :-)
--
regards,
Georges Toth
The only thing I will agree to at this point is
to discuss this in
private with you over a glass of beer!
;-)
Yes. Sometimes it is easier to communicate face to face instead of over
the cyperspace! ;-)
2:25 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Hi,
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Georges Toth wrote:
On Tuesday 29 June 2004 22:01, Patrick Kaell wrote:
third prost!
Ups :-)
Well why not have a club [or geek] meeting someplace with a
nice terrasse, with a drink? We'd want to skip on any
presentation/installation/whatever, but otherwise... sounds
like a very good idea.
Any ideas for a cool location that can accomodate a number
of us?
Apropos, Mr. T. "The Root" C. - when's the next meeting?
The website last mentions the April 22nd meeting...
Greets Eric
Patrick Useldinger wrote:
i second that!
and there might be less misunderstandings...sometimes... :-) The only thing I will agree to at this point is
to discuss this in
private with you over a glass of beer!
;-)
Yes. Sometimes it is easier to communicate face to face instead of over
the cyperspace! ;-)
28 Jun
28 Jun
11:26 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Yes of course, it is only a fraction. If you would
calculate it in
Megabytes, I would say that all the tings you mentioned take up a order
of magnitude less space than let's say KDE alone. There is also many
more work in terms of man/year behind projects like Gnome, KDE, Mozilla,
etc. than behind the entire Gentoo project.
no core, no distro, right?
i didn't talk about gentoo, but distros in general.
I know that choosing a distro is important. I have
already written much
about the pros and crons of different distros in the last posts. I only
wanted to highlight that it is by far not the only thing to think about.
For example Pascal Steichen also proposed to cover then KDE / Gnome
issue.
of course it is not the only thing. did i ever say so?
i only wanted to point out that the choice of the WM or browser or mail rpog
or whatever, doesn't make up a distro and by far isn't the only thing what
makes one feel comfortable about a distro in the long term, or not.
the "lower layer" is at least just as important as the "higher
stuff".
imagine a car without an engine? what good would be for?
for many things, maybe, but not for driving, right?
mplayer and xine was just an example. A Windows LISP
programmer
migrating to Linux will far be more interested in choosing the right
LISP environment (GNU Lisp or another implementation) than the distro.
you compare apples to bananas :-P!
we talk about person X choosing what distro to use, not coda-B migrating from
evil to good ( :-) ).
Believe me. A mathemetician will be more likeley to be
interested by the
differences of Maple and Mathematica than the distro. Same with
databases: Migrating from AIX with Oracle to Linux with Oracle is far
easier then migrating from AIX with Oracle to AIX with DB2. Especially
if you have much PL/SQL code.
of course.
but that's not what we talk about, right?
of course it doesn't matter for someone who wants to test-crash a car, what
car he crashes (in the first term), at least as he crashes one.....but that's
not the point here.
You are right. I have no clue about Gentoo. I had
already decided to
give it a try two weeks ago, but found no time. I *will* give it a try
in a month when I will have much more time.
a good advice is to read the docs.
if you do so, you won't have any problems, and you will find it real easy.
there are docs for just about anything, and they are well made.
Your explanations are good. Gentoo seems to have far
less disadvantages
than I thought.
yep...
I should not have judge it.
idem
But I still have the opinion, that people who are
following this
mailinglist and who have a hard time to choose a distro should begin
with experimenting.
sure.
But no major distro is
really a bad choice!
i got a different opinion on this one.
but anyway, what do you call "a major distro" ?
those which rank first on distrowatch ?
i wouldn't recommend suse to anyone, i, hate suse.
sorry, i know there are quite some people here who would "die" for suse :-D.
i've been using suse since v5.1 - 7.3. and having experience with it through
8-9.
maybe if you're just switching.... but not on a longer term....
You can even take SuSE to build a firewall,
really?.... uhhhh..... hurts while only imagining....
I only
must spend a bit more time uninstalling unneeded things and to get the
permissions right.
aha....and break some deps etc...
You can harden all Linux distros, it is just easier
to do it with some distros.
and some you have to break to make them useful for a certain purpose..
You seem to have difficulties to understand that there
are people who
*care* about whats under the hood, but still have a hard time to choose.
Otherwise, it would be very simple for them, they would just choose the
distro with the prettiest logo and name!!!
you seem to like to misinterpret what i write ? :-)
i know that there are ppl who care!
else there was no such thing as a distro!
that they have a hard time to choose is what i understand as well.
i was at the point of doing it all by myself, and in the middle of that, found
gentoo.
gentoo was at that time in it's early pre-state, but still i immediately was
amazed by it and have been using it til now.
Yes, I always order the CDs. But this is only to
support the distro. I
have *no* contractual guarantee (like you).
but that was your argument against me right?
who cares if
you paid for something, when they give it up?
your arguments are pretty bad.
Maybe. It doesn't matter if you paid for it. You are right at this
point. But you still have no control over it. I still think that it is important to be not too
dependend of the
network connection. Maybe you move to a new appartment without
possibilities to have DSL or Cable.
you don't stop with your assumptions don't you?
what would you do if you had always been using gentoo?
well, you would by cd's, and you would do the same as YOU! do right now with
slack.
you put them in and update.
voila.
except that updating gentoo is far-different from updating regular distros,
and easier.
Maybe SCO manages to shutdown the
Gentoo and Slackware servers by court (and having special contracts with
RedHat).
i doubt so....but let's imagine it :-)
I have already seen this. There have been nice Aqua
like themes
on www.themes.org. These have been removed overnight (because of Apple).
different story.
but still...there we see those great copyright and patent
laws...wooohoooo....get them to europe...wohooo
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
You have explained that it
*is* possible with Gentoo to store the software archives locally. Good.
I am wrong in judging Gentoo.
yup you are.
so why continue above...
Nobody can take you away what you have stored locally.
i know people who can....
(nope, i don't mean burglars)
Imagine you have stored important files in a
specific format (be it xfig, abiword, ...). Imagine you reinstall your
system without this app, because you don't need it. After a year you
must access this files and find that this app has been shut down because
of software patents.
you would be illegal by installing the backed-up software, but let's go on
imagining :-)
People who have installed everything over the
network and who have no CDs of older versions then have a problem.
plz understand that gentoo is not what you think it is.
so just stop it.... PLZ.
But I explicitly told that people should try in a
former post.
i just wanted to reply to your (you know what) post.
not to the whole thread.
Yes its my opinion. Without apps, the distro is
worthless.
but those apps include the core apps.
no core apps, no distro.
but not the point here.
Never forget
that the Linux kernel has been written to run bash, gcc, uemacs, etc and
later X Window. Without all these apps, the kernel would not have been
created and there would be no distros.
in fact as you like to go into such details, it hasn't.
gcc was there b4 linux.
apps were there b4 linux.
linux was written to have a free alternative kernel (to put it simple...and no
i don't want to start a disc. about this :-), google for details, the
internet is full of it.)
--
regards,
Georges Toth
29 Jun
29 Jun
1:30 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
Georges Toth wrote:
I do not understand what you have written above. What I want to say is
the following: If we put together a comparision matrix to compare
distros, we will not have finished the job by just comparing the distro.
After installing the distro (lets say Gentoo), newcomers still will have
many choices to make. We will have to continue to put together matrices
which compare WMs, mail clients and so on. I am sure that you agree that
Gentoo doesn't force one to use a specific Browser, WM or mail client,
right? So the job is not finished by choosing the distro (far from it).
Yes, I know. At least we agree both on the fact that we do not like some
distros at all.
I had no argument *against* you. I just told why I dont't like pure
network based installs. I thought Gentoo was mainly network based,
because I didn't find ISOs for Gentoo with contain a complete
distrobution that contains all the common tools and apps. I saw only the
choice between stage 1, stage 2 and stage 3 installs which all needed a
network connection at some point.
This wasn't against Gentoo (see below).
It's far more plausible than you think. Look at OSS cryptographic tools
which you couldn't be downloaded from US servers. You know why OpenBSD
is based in Canada? OpenBSD was the first major free BSD (the other are
FreeBSD and NetBSD) which contained cryptographic software. This was
only possibly because Theo Raadt lives in Canada!
I am an AIX administrator. IBM has a freeware site for AIX. There you
find AIX packages for almost everything (Apache, KDE, fetchmail, bash,
Gnome, gcc and so on). Guess what: There is *no* SSH package because I
use an european IP address to access their site!
If nobody knows that I am using the software package at home, nobody
will come except burglars!!!
I didn't attack Gentoo anymore. See above.
Sure. The whole GNU project got started in 1984. But people had to
install a non free OS like Solaris to use gcc and bash. Hurd didn't get
ready on time. Linus Torvalds used bash and gcc on Minix. Minix was too
limited (no virtual memory and so on), but Linus still liked his
environment (bash, gcc and uemacs) so much that he wrote a new kernel
for it. Later (still 1992) Orest Zborowski wanted to use X Window at
home. He heard about Linux. He adaped Linux to be compatible with the X
Window system and not the other way round!
of course it is not the only thing. did i ever say
so?
i only wanted to point out that the choice of the WM or browser or mail rpog
or whatever, doesn't make up a distro and by far isn't the only thing what
makes one feel comfortable about a distro in the long term, or not.
You can use any browser and any WM on any distro. I never said that
these things makes up a distro. The opposite is true: People still have
to find the right tools *after* having chosen the distro. I even said
that different distros can *feel* the same on the users's side if they
are configurated the same.
If I would replace the distro on my girlfriend's computer and if I would
install the same environment (Mozilla, OO, Gnome, etc.) and if I would
put the same desktop background, etc. she wouldn't see any difference.
Perhaps there would be a speed difference by going from SuSE to Gentoo
or Slack, because these distros are not as fat. But from the users
perspective (somebody who does not own the root password), it would make
little difference.
On the administrator's side it would be different. I agree.
the "lower layer" is at least just as
important as the "higher stuff".
imagine a car without an engine? what good would be for?
for many things, maybe, but not for driving, right?
Then you don't know how people buy cars. Most people will first think
about the size. If they have 3 kids, they will not buy a Smart or an
Audi TT. After they have found the right size and model, they will
choose the engine. Normally every manufacturer has some choice between
diesel and several petrol engines.
Most people choose at first the environment and then the engine. If the
engine consumes not to much and if it is powerful enough, people will
take it, no matter what's under the hood.
It doesn't happen so often that people must rethink their choice on the
level of the size and model because they don't find the right engine.
And I do not think of 18 years old who choose the engine first. I know,
these are just kids and don't know what's counts.
Believe me. A
mathemetician will be more likeley to be interested by the
differences of Maple and Mathematica than the distro. Same with
databases: Migrating from AIX with Oracle to Linux with Oracle is far
easier then migrating from AIX with Oracle to AIX with DB2. Especially
if you have much PL/SQL code.
of course.
but that's not what we talk about, right?
of course it doesn't matter for someone who wants to test-crash a car, what
car he crashes (in the first term), at least as he crashes one.....but that's
not the point here. i wouldn't recommend suse to anyone, i, hate
suse.
I basically agree with you on this topic. But we should all try to get a
bit more tolerant. This attitude doesn't help the Linux community at
all. If we want that all the banks offer a internet banking solution
that runs under Linux, we will need a user base as large as possible, no
matter if the users runs SuSE or not!!! The distro just isn't important
to this degree. What counts is the fact that the users uses standard
compliant browsers and so on. If BGL, CCPL, BCEE and so on runs on SuSE,
it will automatically also run on Gentoo. *Please*, never forget this
basic fact. On this level, I can only say: Any distro will be a good choice.
I only
must spend a bit more time uninstalling unneeded things and to get the
permissions right.
aha....and break some deps etc... and some you have to break to make them useful for a
certain purpose..
You know what: If I would have the choice to work for two employers: one
that uses a Windows firewall and one that uses a SuSE firewall, I would
take the second one immediately. I could replace the SuSE firewall
overnight to a Gentoo firewall by telling the boss that the firewall
needed an important security update recently. Same with a SuSE webserver
that uses PHP or perls scripts. But what would you do with an IIS server
which uses ASP programs? Then you would have to change the *envionment*,
which would have a much larger impact to the users than just changing
the OS.
What I already told before: changing a database server is a breeze as
long you change the OS and *not* the database product.
For the users (not the administrators), the OS and the distro really is
not important.
Yes, I always
order the CDs. But this is only to support the distro. I
have *no* contractual guarantee (like you).
but that was your argument against me right? no control over what?
if gentoo dies.... there will be forks.
Wishful thinking.
gentoo is a community project, not a company project.
to keep gentoo alive is easier than to keep a distro like suse alive.
with gentoo there would be forks....with suse there would be migrations.
There already are community projects which have been given up.
I still think
that it is important to be not too dependend of the
network connection. Maybe you move to a new appartment without
possibilities to have DSL or Cable.
you don't stop with your assumptions don't you? Maybe SCO
manages to shutdown the
Gentoo and Slackware servers by court (and having special contracts with
RedHat).
i doubt so....but let's imagine it :-) different story.
but still...there we see those great copyright and patent
laws...wooohoooo....get them to europe...wohooo
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Hopefully not.
Nobody can take
you away what you have stored locally.
i know people who can....
(nope, i don't mean burglars) you would be illegal by installing the backed-up
software, but let's go on
imagining :-)
Yes you are right. But I would certainly not have a problem with this
(no bad conscience). All I want is to access my *own* data. I would
still manage to have a good sleep!!!
People who have
installed everything over the
network and who have no CDs of older versions then have a problem.
plz understand that gentoo is not what you think it is.
so just stop it.... PLZ. Never forget
that the Linux kernel has been written to run bash, gcc, uemacs, etc and
later X Window. Without all these apps, the kernel would not have been
created and there would be no distros.
in fact as you like to go into such details, it hasn't. gcc was there b4 linux.
apps were there b4 linux.
linux was written to have a free alternative kernel (to put it simple...and no
i don't want to start a disc. about this :-), google for details, the
internet is full of it.)
This is exactly what I meant. The environment was there first. The OS
followed. In the early nineties, people patched and extended the Linux
kernel, because they wanted to run their app. The whole Linux networking
API (Berkeley Sockets) was created before Linux even had a TCP/IP stack
or network drivers. It was done because X Window needed it to run
locally (over localhost and Unix Sockets).
Type "Orest Zborowski" under google and read. The apps fueled the Linux
development in the early stage and not the other way round.
Patrick Kaell
30 Jun
30 Jun
12:29 p.m.
New subject: Distro is not as important as we all think
the
"lower layer" is at least just as important as the "higher stuff".
imagine a car without an engine? what good would be for?
for many things, maybe, but not for driving, right?
Then you don't know how people buy cars. Most people will first think
about the size. If they have 3 kids, they will not buy a Smart or an
Audi TT. After they have found the right size and model, they will
choose the engine. Normally every manufacturer has some choice between
diesel and several petrol engines.
..... i
wouldn't recommend suse to anyone, i, hate suse.
I basically agree with you on this topic. But we should all try to get a
bit more tolerant. This attitude doesn't help the Linux community at
all. If we want that all the banks offer a internet banking solution
that runs under Linux, we will need a user base as large as possible, no
matter if the users runs SuSE or not!!! The distro just isn't important
to this degree. What counts is the fact that the users uses standard
compliant browsers and so on. If BGL, CCPL, BCEE and so on runs on SuSE,
it will automatically also run on Gentoo. *Please*, never forget this
basic fact. On this level, I can only say: Any distro will be a good
choice. You know what: If I would have the choice to work for
two employers: one
that uses a Windows firewall and one that uses a SuSE firewall, I would
take the second one immediately. I could replace the SuSE firewall
overnight to a Gentoo firewall by telling the boss that the firewall
needed an important security update recently. Same with a SuSE webserver
that uses PHP or perls scripts. But what would you do with an IIS server
which uses ASP programs? Then you would have to change the *envionment*,
which would have a much larger impact to the users than just changing
the OS.
What I already told before: changing a database server is a breeze as
long you change the OS and *not* the database product.
no question, i would go the same way as you did.
i'm open to new stuff, and i can live with what my boss tells me to do or work
with. but i would try to convince him to better stuff if available and
possible.
I had no argument *against* you. I just told why I
dont't like pure
network based installs. I thought Gentoo was mainly network based,
because I didn't find ISOs for Gentoo with contain a complete
distrobution that contains all the common tools and apps. I saw only the
choice between stage 1, stage 2 and stage 3 installs which all needed a
network connection at some point.
there are iso's available with grp's on them. which means binary packages.
those contain a full base system (x, kde, gnome, ... )
gentoo is a
community project, not a company project.
to keep gentoo alive is easier than to keep a distro like suse alive.
with gentoo there would be forks....with suse there would be migrations.
There already are community projects which have been given up. It's far more plausible than you think. Look at
OSS cryptographic tools
which you couldn't be downloaded from US servers. You know why OpenBSD
is based in Canada? OpenBSD was the first major free BSD (the other are
FreeBSD and NetBSD) which contained cryptographic software. This was
only possibly because Theo Raadt lives in Canada!
i wouldn't compare that to the sco case.
sco never had a chance, and they are on the way to close their doors.
so this is not very plausible.
If nobody knows that I am using the software package
at home, nobody
will come except burglars!!!
i maybe thought a bit too paranoid....
but things happen....
--
regards,
Georges Toth
7263
days inactive
7264
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21 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
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Eric Dondelinger -
Georges Toth -
Mike Pressel -
Patrick Kaell -
Patrick Useldinger